[00:00:07] Carissa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Carissa Andrews International bestselling indie author and CEO of author Revolution. With more than 15 books published, it's safe to say I have made a ton of mistakes in my endeavor to become a full time author. The most important thing that I've learned in the past decade is that indie authors need to protect their creativity and their serenity. Being an author is a long game, and that's why I'm on a mission to teach other Indies just like you how to publish books with a sustainable rapid release method. I created the author Revolution Podcast to give you insights and actionable, step by step strategies to help you do just that. If you're an ambitious author or one in the making who's looking to create a long term author career and a life you love, you found your tribe, my friend. Let's get your author revolution underway. Yeah, yeah, Welcome back to the podcast. Today. I have a great show lined up for you. If you're a new author wondering about the best way to plot out your novels or series, you'll be happy to know my guest today Has you covered plotting your novels can be a challenge at times. Trust me, I know this all too well, particularly though, if you are not sure on what method will work best for you. The great thing is, there are so many different ways to get it done. And more than one way to try out plotting so that it fits your process more seamlessly. Now, if you've been listening to the podcast for awhile, you already know that I recommend the program plotter to help you get this job done. Now, this week I brought Ryan Z co partner of Plotter to the show to talk about its inception and how you can best leverage plotter to get your words on the page faster. Are you ready? Let's hop into the interview. Well, hello, Ryan. Thank you so much for joining us on the other revolution podcast Today I am super excited that you're here. And, uh, I was just wondering, Do you want to take a moment to tell my audience a little bit about who you are and what it is you do and why they should be paying attention to what you're going to tell us today?

[00:02:26] Ryan: Yes, of course. thanks so much for having me. Um, my name is Ryan. I'm the founder of books sweeps dot com, which is a lead generation site for authors. And I'm also the co founder of Plotter, which is a visual outlining software for writers. And I'm really excited to be talking to you about that today.

[00:02:43] Carissa: That is so fantastic. I did not know a whole lot about the whole, uh, book sweeps thing. So you're going to have to fill me in a little bit on that as well, because I'm like, Wait a minute, What happened here? What's what's going on? So before we get into the plotter stuff, which is what we're going to be talking about today mostly explain that whole situation. How did that get started? And what can authors dig into when it comes to that?

[00:03:06] Ryan: Yeah. I mean, so I've been working with authors for about 78 years at this point, so book Soups is a is A is a platform for authors to primarily grow their email us and book book following through multi author giveaways that we put together. Um, so basically, we put together giveaways on a weekly basis that you can find on the website where we bring together authors and specific genres and sub genre so cozy mystery urban fantasy. You know why I, uh, young adult etcetera Romance runs the gamut of genres in the fiction room. Uh, so we provide, uh, like social media templates. We provide social media templates, graphics and then, you know, we share the contest with our audience, and we have an audience of over 100,000 readers on our email list.

[00:03:51] Carissa: That's amazing.

[00:03:52] Ryan: So they come basically to a landing page on our website, where they can then enter their information and choose the authors whose newsletters they want to sign up for. Um, and it's all GDP are compliant. They're like multiple confirmation steps. Nobody is getting confused about what they're signing up for. Uh, we've been doing that since I've been running that since 2016. We worked with over 5000 close to 6000 authors. At this point, it's

[00:04:16] Carissa: what got you interested in starting in? That particular aspect was there. Did you find it was hard for you like, are you writing? I'm assuming that you're a writer as well. So were you finding it was hard to get people onto your list. And so therefore, you're like, Hey, I'm going to create this thing, Or how did that come about? I mean,

[00:04:32] Ryan: this was this started before I had really an interest in writing professionally. So I was an intern at a Internet literal agencies in Manhattan for a number of years after I graduated college. Um, so the last place I interned at was writers House, which is a major literary agency that represent people like Neil Gaiman, twilight, uh, Nora Roberts. Um, so they have a lot of, you know, high powered authors. Uh, and I was there, like, first ever digital marketing. In turn, I created the position. They're actually I was like, I can't look at another terrible manuscript.

[00:05:04] Carissa: I

[00:05:07] Ryan: can't do this. I was like, I like I want to be in the I had some marketing jobs on the side. I was doing like at the same time. It was like, I want to stay in the book world, but I cannot possibly put Red Pen to another terrible manuscript that's going nowhere. It's like a waste of time for everyone. So, um, so that kind of I started, they started referring the clients basically and kind of one thing led to another. I was working with these New York Times bestselling romance authors who were interested in leveraging the figure out ways to grow their email us. And I was like, Well, you guys all have audiences. Why don't we kind of let each other's audiences know about the other people? Basically, it seems pretty intuitive. Uh oh, Um, that's basically the premise behind the multi author giveaway is that you know, folks who have an audience get, you know, introduced to other people and vice versa. So it's a, you know, it just kind of it worked really well, and it just kind of we started. I started running them at the end of 2015, beginning of 2016. Then it turned into a full fledged business, which is book sweeps around the summer of 2016 and going strong sense.

[00:06:18] Carissa: That's amazing. That is really when there's so many things that are going on in my brain. Right now, we have, um, I have a friend who is an incredible email marketing. So we've talked a lot about email marketing and how important it is and Derek Decker. There we go. Derek Decker is running his email challenge right now, and I'm kind of in the background checking those videos out there kind of long, so I'll watch them in a good time. I'm not. I'm not active in the actual challenge as much as I probably should be at this particular moment. But it's really fascinating because I see a lot of authors right now really trying to get their hands around email marketing and trying to figure out how do they grow this list and make things even better? Obviously, the writing aspect of it is pretty important as well. But being able to figure out how to tap into their readers is super huge, so that is really awesome. I didn't I did not know that I've even learned something new here today. That's incredible.

[00:07:11] Ryan: Oh,

[00:07:12] Carissa: my goodness, Well, let's also talk about plotter because that's one of the big things. And I know my audience is really excited to be able to hear more about plotter and what it is that you do and how that story came about. So before we talk about who should be using plotter and all that. Tell me a little bit about how that concept then came about after book sweeps and then moved into the water And how that whole thing, how did that happen?

[00:07:36] Ryan: Yeah, it's an interesting story. So I'm not I should be clear. Like I'm not the original creator of Plotter. So plotter has been around since 2017 in some form. It was created by my partner, Cameron, whose name is Cameron Sutter. Uh, so, uh, I found out about plotter around the end of 2019. Actually, somebody posted about it in a Facebook group somewhere. Um, and I was like, Oh, this looks really interesting. I've never heard of this. I'm not Not sure why? Um, it seems pretty cool. Um, and I'm like an aspiring author myself. And I still haven't started something because I feel overwhelmed, but like being involved in the water has really helped. But I'll get to that, Um but yeah. So I I saw this post was like, this is really cool. I'm interested. So I reached out to him. I literally went like, next minute I went to his website, get the live chat, so I sent him a message. It was like I you know, I run books, Sweets. I think we could partner and help work with each other. And he's like, Cool. Um, and one thing led to A couple months later, I was a partner in the business, so it's kind of crazy. Just send him an email and it turns into a whole opportunity,

[00:08:38] Carissa: right? Isn't that I think that's so powerful to when you think about it? For anybody who's listening, I mean really, honestly, authors. This works for them Just a normal life, too, If you partner if you want, let's say to tap into someone else's email list, you could do something like book sweeps. Or you could just say, Hey, look, I'd love to cool, right? And who knows? They might end up being that they're like, Hey, you know what? Sure, why not? Let's give it a try. It's just it's just an email. Reach out. You never You

[00:09:04] Ryan: never know who people know, right? It's like, Well, maybe I'm not the co writer for you, but hey, my friend is James Patterson. So have you ever heard him?

[00:09:11] Carissa: Yeah, right. I love that so much and they'll be like? No. Who is that guy? Oh, to be in that world. They must be under Iraq if they think that. Yeah, that's amazing. That is I love that so much. It's so cool to see how those connections can be built and how they manifest into something so powerful, just just so simply Okay, So obviously plotter then has evolved. So explain where it's come from, where you start where you started when you came in at that point to where it is now.

[00:09:44] Ryan: Yeah, I mean, so I should just explain. Cameron is an author himself. So, you know, he was a y a in the author trying to figure out how to outline he was using, like, scrivener and other tools that just weren't quite working for his process. So he built this basically as a tool for himself and just kind of threw. So that was the You know, that's why it exists, Um, in terms of, like, who should be using it and what it is. I mean, So, like I said, it's a visual outlining software for writers. You know, it's kind of built off of the index card model at its core thinking that we can think about, like index cards on a wall or on a word and moving them around by hand. And so, basically, Cameron, the basic idea behind Plotter is basically taking that concept and turning it into a digital product where you can drag and drop the cards around, you know, without worrying about your kids scribbling all over them. Or, you

[00:10:34] Carissa: know, or them getting stuck to your shoe and walking out the door. God knows what else.

[00:10:39] Ryan: I

[00:10:41] Carissa: totally get that

[00:10:42] Ryan: I love

[00:10:42] Carissa: that there's so many different templates to in there. I mean, one of the things that I was really fascinated with when I first started was all the different ways that you you've already kind of made it easy for authors to come in and try to see what what type of template works in their brains.

[00:10:58] Ryan: Yeah, yeah, so we have templates for all different kinds of genres from, uh, we have a romance template for bike for Gwen Hayes called Romancing the Beat, which is really popular. We have general templates for, you know, a general structure like a hero's journey, that kind of thing

[00:11:16] Carissa: even have, like, save the cat in there. The snowflake method. I know a friend of mine is really interested in the snowflake method that you've got. You've got posted in there. He's actually looking into that right now because he it works best in his brain. And I have other friends who love the save the cat aspects of it. So it's it's so cool how many different types that you have in there I myself like to use the three act structure. So I have a tendency to kind of were more towards those.

[00:11:42] Ryan: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, we have, like, the like, the 12th chapter mystery outlined. We have, um, looking like we even have one for, uh, one of the We have one for manga, which I think is hilarious.

[00:11:52] Carissa: That's amazing.

[00:11:54] Ryan: Um, really awesome. So I mean, it kind of, you know, there are templates for kind of where we're always we're working on adding more we have. We're playing on adding one for cozy mystery in the near future, for example, but, uh,

[00:12:07] Carissa: yeah, I'm a huge.

[00:12:08] Ryan: We're always looking for new templates, and we're always adding new ones are trying to add new ones can be complicated based on who owns the template in some cases, but

[00:12:18] Carissa: sure, especially Latino James Patterson,

[00:12:21] Ryan: for instance. Not

[00:12:22] Carissa: that he writes cozy mysteries, but you know what I'm saying, although that would be quite the advertisement we have James Patterson's outlining style in here Come get it, Everybody like what? Right? So obviously, this is such a unique and different concepts. So if someone is new to plotter or new to the concept of plotter, where's a good entry point for them to start? Should they just go to the website? Is there some sort? Of course, that they can check out. Is there a YouTube channel? Where would you recommend people if they want to really kind of see from the I guess, Outset, how does it work and whether or not it is something that that would work in their brain?

[00:13:07] Ryan: Yeah. I mean, I definitely recommend, like, check out the free trial first. Um, uh, we have, uh, we have training sessions also every other week. So if you sign up for the email us, you'll get an email about signing up for a training session, and then you can, you know, hear about literally you can ask questions of one of our moderators and see how the product works. We also have a video course where you can review how the product works. We have a Facebook group where you can ask questions. Um, and I think the other thing is, like, kind of, you know, are you new to plotter or, you know, to plotting? Um, yeah, uh, you know, if your new

[00:13:43] Carissa: which I think a lot of authors are,

[00:13:46] Ryan: Yeah, if you're new to plotting, I would definitely try the templates. Like, once you've, uh, you start there, that's that's I've learned a lot, just going over the templates myself. And I think pattern recognition is huge. You start seeing things as you because a lot of these templates are kind of rehashing the same idea, I think, and they're just approaching kind of saying the same thing in different ways as the impression I get a lot of the time.

[00:14:11] Carissa: Yeah, and I think it's really it's really valuable to be able to go in there and and see how different people are managing that data, you know, And like you said, the pattern recognition because sometimes it just takes that one phrase being shifted just a little bit. And all of a sudden all those different versions that you just looked at clicks it's like that one little thing just needs to fall into place. And you're like, Ah ha, I get it Now I get It

[00:14:35] Ryan: was like the other day I was like, Oh, I realized what the point of a subplot is. It's like I get why, like that's like how that works into the overall structure of the story and why you would have that from a character development perspective was like, Oh, this makes a lot more sense now. I was like, there was something the other day I was like, Oh, yeah, I was just like the more you spend time with it, something like this, the more things start to collect.

[00:14:57] Carissa: Absolutely. It's like that learning spiral where it's like you start at the bottom, but it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and you just learn it with more depth. It's just kind of crazy the way that it works that way. You kind of keep coming back and forth to it, okay, so in my course, which is really kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to reach out to you because it was such a unique thing. I teach my students how to use Plotter as kind of like a Gant chart for tracking their releases, because I'm teaching them to do four different release strategies every year. So four different books every year using a series. And I was struggling at the time to find a Gant chart that was either readily available where you didn't have to pay for it in addition to something you already own or, you know, without using Excel. Because Excel or Google spreadsheet is just a pain in the butt to try to move things around. And I was kind of playing around in Plotter, and I realized I'm like, Oh my gosh, I labeled you know, if I ran these four different books and then rather than chapters, I put them all as the months of the year this is again chart I can make them. I can make my students use something that they're probably already going to use, or if they're not using it, I'm going to recommend they use it to get this thing going, and so have you ever seen it also used in ways like that? Or are people mostly just using it for plotting their books?

[00:16:15] Ryan: We actually, we actually have one really good example of this, actually. So we recently interviewed Victoria L. K. Williams, who's a actually, she's a ghost mystery author, Um, and she created, like a 2021 goals plotter file and so, like her headings are general goals. First quarter, second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter and then she has like, uh, timeline or plot lines for, like, personal life, son, botanical things she's doing writing, editing, marketing. So she's like tracking these and then she has the months actually has stacks like a scene stack. So, like first Quarter is the heading for the chapter and under, like stacks of scenes of January, February March.

[00:16:58] Carissa: Nice

[00:16:59] Ryan: underneath that. So, yeah, that's one of the only few examples I've seen, but that is a really it's a cool idea.

[00:17:06] Carissa: Yeah, I use. I use it where it's like Book one book to book three before and then I have a line for promotions. So any any kind of advertising promotion that's going to be coming up because it's not always tied to the book that you're writing, you know, especially when it's your this particular year. If that book is not written, it's not out yet. You're not gonna be advertising it necessarily, although you could have advertising tasks associated with it. But if you have a backlist you've got, you know, promotions and things that you should probably be keeping track of in February. And so I use I have that that fifth line where I'm trying to keep track of Okay, What kind of promotions are also happening where I can just really quickly and easily go to this one one simple place, and I'm already in it anyway, because I'm obviously writing my books. So it's like we may as well just pull up one more of those files. And here we go,

[00:17:50] Ryan: Yeah, it's part,

[00:17:52] Carissa: Yeah, it's really cool. And I love the fact that I was able to, like, get everything in the same place and seriously, like, get last year when I was trying to get this course organized, like, Why are gap charts so hard to find? And I was just so happy when that clicked into place. I don't even know what I was doing or why I did it or what I was fiddling around with. And all of a sudden it just clicked. And I'm like, Yes, like the

[00:18:15] Ryan: other elements of like when you're creating a Gant chart, do you use like the character in places and other like to use any other elements of plotter with that? Or

[00:18:23] Carissa: I do? Sometimes, yeah, it depends on the type of goal. So if there's something inside of the book itself, that is because I break them out into four different phases, where it's the plan phase right, publish and promote. And so if there's something in specific that I'm trying to keep track of for a specific book or for a specific series, I will use those in place of characters or whatever the case might be. Um, I can't think of anything off the top of my head because my brain just went blank. But I do do that. And then when I obviously plotting out my books, I use that all the time because I want to keep track of what's happening throughout the series.

[00:18:58] Ryan: So I'm all

[00:19:00] Carissa: that stuff. Yep,

[00:19:02] Ryan: very cool. Yeah, I just wanted to like people should also just be aware that you can track your characters and places in here. Also, Um, I don't think I mentioned that, but that is also part of what plotter helps you do. And then you can integrate those into your scene card so you can then, you know, see them or see which cards are attached to which characters or places that kind of thing. So

[00:19:23] Carissa: I think that's really helpful, too, because if you're going okay, when was the last time I brought this side character in? It's like I have no idea without doing a big, massive search of my manuscript. It's really helpful to be able to just really quickly and easily see where everything is laid out at. Okay, So if anyone is obviously interested in checking out plotter or interested in checking out books, sweeps or chatting with you guys about the program or anything that you guys are doing, where is the best place for them to be able to come and find you?

[00:19:51] Ryan: Yeah, So if you're interested in plotter, uh, definitely come to the website plotter dot com p l o t t r dot com In book sweeps is also book sweeps dot com Book the okay and then sweeps like chimney sweeps S W E E p s dot com. So, uh, yeah, definitely check out those websites and if you have any questions, their support lines where people can reach out and we're glad to help you out,

[00:20:14] Carissa: that's awesome. Well, is there anything else that you can think of that my audience should know about plotter or about book sweeps that you want to be able to relate to them before we head out for the day?

[00:20:24] Ryan: I'm always terrible at this question.

[00:20:25] Carissa: I should have probably put it on the list of questions, so you have to get out of it because I just thought of it now.

[00:20:31] Ryan: I

[00:20:33] Carissa: love putting people on the spot. Evil superpower.

[00:20:37] Ryan: What should you know? Um, I don't know. Is there anything else you think people should know about Plotter?

[00:20:43] Carissa: Oh, man threw it back in the I see how you are. That's mean. I think that honestly, it's it's really that if you are new to plotting that this is such a great program to be able to check out. I personally started as a cancer so, I mean, I've been writing since 2000 and 10, and my first book, even though I had a fun time writing it, even though I think the story ultimately came out Okay, I remember getting to the end of it and going I don't even know if I did it right. You know, like, is there is there a story line in there? I'm not even sure. And so after that point, the next books, Uh, from that point forward, I made sure to kind of at least have a skeletal outline and kind of give myself some sort of mindset to organize my thoughts about the book and now being able to dig into plotter and being able to use it as a as a guide. It's just much more of a concrete way, because originally I was using, um, Excel. So I was literally breaking out the three acts, just putting in a few things about what I thought in each seen, or each act would go in there and moved on. But this is so much more engrossing. You're able to get a lot more detail in there. I mean, you can get as in depth as you want with your chapters and every little bit of information you want to put in there. You can track it all in there. It's amazing. So and it's it does, like you said all the different things that Scrivener also does, but does it in a way that is not as confusing or as cumbersome. I think so for authors who are new to plotting and wanting to just kind of wrap their heads around it a little bit. Having those templates and then having all that bonus information kept in one location, especially if you're writing a series, is, I think, in my opinion, super beneficial.

[00:22:26] Ryan: Awesome. I appreciate

[00:22:27] Carissa: that. It's too. You did

[00:22:32] Ryan: a better job answering that question that I could have possibly done. So thank

[00:22:35] Carissa: you. You need more coffee, man. Come on. Oh, funny. Well, that's just my two cents. It's the way I work with it. And it's I'm so happy to have found a program that actually does work with the way that my brain works, because I'll tell you what Excel my best friend originally when she wanted me to keep track of my stuff, she was the one that nudged me into writing the first place. She's a complete type, a use Excel spreadsheet with formulas and everything kind of person. And she was like, You need to keep track of this stuff in excel And it was like it just my brain did not compute with that at all. No, and I'm an organized person, but not well. There's still a lot

[00:23:14] Ryan: of people, I think, even like there's still a lot of people right now who recommend that as a strategy who, you know, they sell products based off of their spreadsheet templates and that kind of thing, which is,

[00:23:24] Carissa: uh, my brain just does not, I don't know. I think I'm too visual of a person. I grew up with an artist for a mother and her mother, who is an artist. I guess you know whatever, however she identifies herself, and so for me it was like just having visual aspects is very, very much a way of the process that I learned So I like it so much and it's like you said, being able to easily drag and drop and move things around quickly is so nice, especially if you are planning your releases or your strategy for the year, or however you want to break it down and use it in ways. Probably You guys didn't necessarily intend for it to be used.

[00:24:01] Ryan: The fun thing about the Facebook group, honestly, as we get people posting like, you know, oftentimes, like all these crazy ways that they're using plotters like Okay, that's cool. Like someone used your grocery list. People use it for all kinds of things. So hey,

[00:24:16] Carissa: man, it works. If you don't have to pay for another app and you're using it already and it's getting like your brain working an organized go for it. That's awesome.

[00:24:25] Ryan: Well,

[00:24:26] Carissa: thank you so much for joining me today, Ryan, and participate in this crazy conversation about plotting and making sure that people know how to use tools like Plotter. And then, obviously, if they're going to try to get their words out and get known, they need to be using both books sweeps as well. So this is an incredible opportunity for them to be able to listen to you. And I'm so glad that you were able to join us today.

[00:24:48] Ryan: Yeah, thanks so much Carissa. Thanks for having me.

[00:24:51] Carissa: and there you have it. If you're a Panther like I was in the beginning or you're struggling to get words on the page, my first recommendation is always to learn how to plot your novels. Not only does it alleviate issues like writer's block, but it also helps you keep track of all the moving parts in a new novel or series. And trust me, there can be a lot at times. If this is the first time you've ever heard of plotter, make sure to head over to author revolution dot org forward slash plotter P L O T T R to get in on your free 30 day trial of the product. But I will say once you dig into plotter and everything it can do, don't be surprised when you realize it's the lifesaver you are looking for. And I also like to mention I'll be joining Plotter inside their Facebook group this coming week. Thursday, March 18th at 2 p.m. Central Time, and I'll be demoing how I use plotter to map out a rapid release series. It's the exact same template I talked about in this episode, so be sure to join their Facebook community, and I'll make sure to link to it in the show notes. Speaking of those show notes, head over to author revolution dot org forward slash 72 to download the transcript or get any direct links to everything that we're talking about today, including that free trial of plotter and the video of this podcast episode. If you'd like to talk more about plotting or how to use plotter with the author Revolution Community, you can also head over to author Revolutions, Facebook Group and open up a discussion. We love diving in deeper into topics discussed here on the podcast, so never hesitate to bring your questions or comments. All right, that's it for today, my friend. I hope you are excited to try out Plotter and some of the amazing templates that they have set up already inside the program for you. You truly can't go wrong with this great product. Plus the support from their team and their group is super amazing. In the meantime, however, I want you to go forth and start your author revolution.