[00:00:11] spk_0: I'm Carissa Andrews International best selling indie author and CEO of author Revolution. With more than 15 books published, it's safe to say I have made a ton of mistakes in my endeavor to become a full time author. The most important thing that I've learned in the past decade is that indie authors need to protect their creativity and their serenity. Being an author is a long game, and that's why I'm on a mission to teach other in these just like you how to publish books with a sustainable rapid release method. I created the author Revolution Podcast to give you insights and actionable, step by step strategies to help you do just that. If you're an ambitious author or one in the making who's looking to create a long term author career and a life you love, you found your tribe, my friend. Let's get your author revolution underway. Welcome back, everyone. This week I have something very special for you. I have an interview with a special guest. My friend Paul Hind Garden is going to be joining me today, and we're gonna be talking about his process into becoming in India author and for him a rapid release author in the coming year. Now a Little Bit about Paul. Paul is Undie author who writes mainly science fiction and fantasy with an occasional detour into general fiction. He has also been a musician for most of his life and an I T professional because, of course, it pays the bills. He lives in south Louisiana with his wife, Andrea, and in addition to sharing his passion for writing with his wife and his local Bayou Writers Club, he is also a diehard Saints fan, which, you might not know is that Paul and I were also part of a box set that came out called On the Brink. We were part of a dystopian science fiction group and we that's really where we started, kind of hanging out a little bit more, and since then, Paul and I have become good friends. Now I would love for you to learn a little bit more about Hiss process, because I really do think that it will inspire you into seeing how things change and how to be able to develop your author career. Perhaps you're just starting out. Perhaps this concept of rapid releasing is new to you or perhaps even in the authorship is kind of new to you. Well, Paul is going to highlight some questions that maybe you have. I know that there are some that I've even had. So I hope you enjoy learning a little bit more about Paul and what it is that he writes. So I'm not gonna take any more time. Let's hop right to it. Welcome, Paul. Two are crazy. Author, Revolution Podcast. I'm so glad that you're here. I would love it if you would go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself and let my audience know kind of what you're into, what you're doing. What Europe Thio. Well,

[00:03:07] spk_1: thanks for having me, Carissa and hello, everybody. My name is Paul Heingarten, and I'm 48 years old. I live in New Orleans, Louisiana, and aside from the writing a few other things about me. I've been a musician for over 40 years. Trumpet player, playing in bands all the way back to grade school, up to present day and a lot of different music there, Uh, been married since 2000 and six to Ah, lovely lady named Andrea. And we've been living in kind of a suburb of the New Orleans area and basically, you know, just, uh, like, good food and music and surviving the cove in world as of late,

[00:03:55] spk_0: right? It's been craziness. Oh, my goodness. And just for those who are listening, if you do like to listen to trumpet playing, you should definitely follow Paul on social media because he is always in there. I always see you playing your trumpet and doing all What is that trumpet in the hall or Paul in the hall, All in the

[00:04:12] spk_1: hall? Yeah, it kind of It grew out of this past world because, you know, I was in several bands and, of course, since mid March that came to a screeching halt. So I just I was trying toe grasps or something of the pre coded life, and I figured, Well, I mean, it's easy to just play one of these, you know, quick videos and, you know, get my fixed for music for the week. So it kinda and people seem to have enjoyed it, So it z encouraged me to keep doing it.

[00:04:42] spk_0: That is so awesome. I love it. So much s okay. How long have you been writing? Because you and I have been friends for years. But I would love to know how long you've actually been writing.

[00:04:52] spk_1: Well, writing in general started way back. I mean, I remember a creative writing class that we had in grade school and, you know, it was just I

[00:05:03] spk_0: don't even think it was

[00:05:04] spk_1: in the hole. So it was probably just a ah unit of the English class we were in, and it didn't last very long, but it made a impact. It was like, This is kind of fun, you know? I like this and and then from there

[00:05:18] spk_0: a little bit in

[00:05:19] spk_1: high school, you know, just I worked for the school year book, and then it kind of grew a little more when I got to college, majored in journalism and wrote for the school newspaper. But as far as like the novel writing that I've been doing for the past few years, that really didn't start until about 2010 or so. I started working on my first draft of what was gonna be my first novel. So it

[00:05:48] spk_0: must have been the year for it. 2010 was right at that time frame when everyone was like, you know, this is really kind of fun. Yeah,

[00:05:56] spk_1: it's kind of funny. Just, uh, I guess over time. And, you know, just I've read over the years, Of course. And I don't know, just something just kind of clicked when they like. Yeah, And maybe Maybe you said maybe this 2010. You know something about that year?

[00:06:08] spk_0: So what? What time frame of 2010 did you start writing? I'm just curious, because for me, it was like October 10th. I even know the day because it was 10. 10, 10. I think it might have

[00:06:18] spk_1: been earlier in the year. I I worked, uh, the schedule I've had I've been on since about 2006, actually. At work. My day job is, uh I worked four days a week, so it used to be I had off on Mondays and and then, you know, with all that extra time, you know, of course, at first, you know, you're just doing OK. I'm off work. I'm going to sleep until 11 or whatever, but I've never done that. Well, you know e having kids. I mean, you have a far different experiencing me on that, but yeah, so I think it just kind of grew from there, but I think it was early in the year that I started doing that.

[00:07:04] spk_0: Okay, Cool. That is awesome. So what kind of stuff do you write? So that my audience, I mean, I've probably already told my audience what you write or the type of stuff. You right. But why don't you elaborate? What? What is it that you really enjoy writing? And how did that kind of come about?

[00:07:19] spk_1: Well, the both the bulk of what I write is science fiction. I had a trilogy that I completed earlier in the year, which was kind of dystopian and post apocalyptic ish. And, um, lately what I've been working on very, very steadily is a space opera. Siri's, that That's the majority. I do that. The story I mentioned that I started writing back in 2010, which became a novel, was actually not even science fiction at all. It was just general fiction. I just I wanted Thio. I guess it was challenge myself like Okay, let me see it. Can you write a book? Can you finish a book, you know. But that that

[00:07:59] spk_0: first one, that is the question. Yeah,

[00:08:01] spk_1: exactly. It wasn't even sci fi. It also, but it was kinda. And I think you said this on on an earlier episode. I heard you say that. You know, once you finish, if you don't finish writing a book, you won't have the what it takes to continue. You know, it z part of the process is finishing

[00:08:17] spk_0: it. Yeah, absolutely. You learn so much in that finishing phase. And if you don't go through that entire cycle at least once, there's so much that you can't conceptualize just yet because it isn't even in your world view.

[00:08:31] spk_1: As far as, like, influences go, I mean, well, you could go all the way back, Thio 1977 when I was a young lad. And I

[00:08:40] spk_0: know right where you're going with this one. A

[00:08:42] spk_1: little movie called Star Wars came out way. Just call this Star Wars. It wasn't the rise of Skywalker or returning to Genoa. It was just Star Wars. And yeah, I don't even remember exactly when I first saw it. My brother is five years older than me, so I have to figure he was probably chomping at the bit. And you know what? I'm going to get a baby sitter for, you know, two hours. So So I'm sure I was brought along at some point. I don't know, remember exact. I don't know if it was the opening week, but I definitely saw it and saw it often. That was a couple of years that that was like, the genesis of it. But then, you know, you go on further into, and really, it was more movies from a, um that that really got my interest in sci fi, Uh, later on alien aliens, Determinate er

[00:09:33] spk_0: Oh, yes, even

[00:09:34] spk_1: et you know, just just we're just We're just get a lot of really good stories in those days. And, you know, I guess at first, of course, I'm drawn into the cool effects. You know, being a guy, I guess visually stimulated, you know, like the spaceships and the light sabers. And this the battles and everything really caught my eye. But yeah, I think the stories were just always there. I just It took me a while to really start appreciating them. And then the strong characters male and female. I mean back to Princess Leia. Then you have Sarah Connor and all these other really good heroes with solid stories.

[00:10:14] spk_0: That's fantastic. I think for me, I've always really loved the visuals as well. But it's not just in sci fi, at least for me. It's not just the visual part of it, but it's the forward thinking, like trying to put myself outside of the norm of where we are now and and seeing like, where could we technically be? Could This is this something that we could at some point, actually pull into the future and become You know what I mean? Like like even Star Wars. Star Trek, you know, walking around with ipads basically, you know, on Star Trek. And now we're living it. And it's just all of those little nuances e love the mental somersaults Sci fi puts me through. I love that. Yeah,

[00:10:52] spk_1: definitely are. Like Lieutenant Uhura, the very first Bluetooth. You know the thing in her ear. E come on back in 1966. She's she's doing She's got one of those.

[00:11:01] spk_0: Heck, yes, that is a fantastic. So Okay, then that makes me ask the question Which one are you? Are you a Star Trek or Star Wars fan? Well, I

[00:11:09] spk_1: do like both. Absolutely. It's interesting, but we'll star wars across the world now. I will say, I do have mawr love for the episodes, although got to give it up to the man DeLorean for just not gonna most recently. But I haven't gotten so much into the other Siris of Star Wars, like the Rebels and the clone wars and things like that. I mean, I appreciate it, and I figure if it's anything that universe, I'm sure I'm gonna like it. I just I have focused more on the episodes now for Star Trek. I mean, they've got their own factions there. You got the original Siri's, the Next generation Deep Space nine and Voyager and and so on. And I'm I'm an old school with Star Trek. I mean, I love Kirk and just the group what they did and just those those stories there. But, I mean, I have gotten toe like Ricardas. Well, I mean, how can

[00:12:09] spk_0: you discovery though Discovery beats the card. Come on. Oh, it does. It's so good. And I didn't think I'd like it because I didn't like the main character from when she was on the walking dead, but she has grown on me. I like her now. I can't remember her name, but she's fantastic.

[00:12:24] spk_1: Chemo grew or is that was she and something I can't

[00:12:28] spk_0: remember for sure. I would have to look it up. I should probably should have come to think of it, But yeah, she's She's just really great. She's She's done a good job of growing on me as Sparks sister. So that's been an interesting transition. So now we kind of know a little bit about your writing in the influences. But what is your release strategy as it stands right now? Like, what are you doing for 2021? What have you tried in the past? What kind of situation do you have under your belt? Because you've got a lot of books and short stories out there.

[00:12:58] spk_1: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's been a steady stream. I mean, I've tried over the past few years. I think I've been pretty good with at least one or two a year now, you know, And I was a little new on the box, that idea and I'm in a writer's group, which has got to give them a shout out by your writers club. Unfortunately, we've been on hiatus like everybody else. But one of the things that we were doing zoom chats with the pandemic. And, you know, I've heard about Box said since being in this group. But I never really thought about doing it from me. And, you know, I had this this trilogy, the Valkyrie Chronicles and the last one came out February this year and then started hearing from people All you gotta do the box that What do you mean? And I would go on Amazon and I would see they had a nice little pretty display of the three books, and I figured that's what everybody was talking about. And I just put promote that link and they said, No, no, you got to get the book together, all three of them in one, and do that. And so, um, that was kind of you know what got me to do that? But the release strategy I've had up until this year has just been pretty much wanted to. Now, my good friend Chris A. Andrews eyes

[00:14:10] spk_0: really e never heard of a crazy

[00:14:15] spk_1: lady up from Minnesota. You when you mentioned the rapid release your boot camp course and it started to get me thinking about it. And I had heard about rapid release elsewhere, but I guess we're just another, you know, kind of ping about that idea. And so I had been working on this space opera, Siri's. And, you know, I started with the idea of six. I don't want to say, Well, I was thinking of them a short stories. I think they're technically more novel. Let's there a little longer than a short story, you know, tend to 20,000 words somewhere in there each. And I just started thinking of them as a connected universe, you know, almost like a nem. See you, if you will marvel cinematic universe. And just this this one and I figured I'd start with the war. Figured What? What's gonna go on? I mean, look what you know George R. R. Martin did with game of Thrones. Let's make it some kind of a war that's going to go on with all these factions of these nations and so figure I could get a lot of stories out of it. But I started with these six, and I figured well, originally, I was gonna put him out of this one anthology, just one thing and be done with it. And I have one release and then we'll be back to square one writing again. So I thought, Well, people seem to be doing a lot more shorter works these days when I put them out separately, and then I went from having one really state to having six and then really seven. When Whenever I have the the anthology on the back end. So I kind of I've been thinking and really decided to adopt that whole rapid release where now, instead of just putting out one book, I'll have really seven releases over, you know, once every one of you, two months into 2021 going beyond. So that's kind of where I'm heading just to try toe, you know, get a little more visibility and repetitive exposure. Not just one book, but a continual, you know, flow of new works.

[00:16:24] spk_0: Absolutely. Do you feel that that flow for you is working out pretty well, like getting are you ahead of yourself or you going to try to write it and then release it, write it and then release it. I've

[00:16:34] spk_1: always been worried about I know. I think you may do this. And I know this. This I've seen a few of the authors of Follow just say that, Yeah, I put the pre order up and I haven't even written the book yet. And that that blows my mind. I salute anybody who could do that. And I just I I figure I would be stressing, like like a mofo. If i e

[00:16:56] spk_0: love it e

[00:16:59] spk_1: my day job stressful enough. I don't need to add onto it.

[00:17:03] spk_0: Right. That is so smart sometimes, I swear, That's kind of where I'm at for 2021. I'm this close to pulling the trigger. Don't tell Jenny. Grab. So, as an India author, what are some of your biggest frustrations about the process?

[00:17:20] spk_1: Well, as of late, marketing has been a big thorn for me. I've Yeah, I've heard all the stories about how well sales condemn pin December in January, but I mean, mine have been almost basically flatlines. It's now that being said, I don't do whole lot of paid promotions. I mean, I was doing them a lot earlier. I got a little burned out When I, you know, I get recommendations from people, fellow writers, people in my body writers group club and they would say, like, this service, that service, you know, And I don't even wanna throw any under the bus with this video. But just some of them were just like, Okay, I've gotten some traction. And I guess, you know, I guess you can totally put it on the service Sometimes. I mean, it is your cover. It's your marketing that you're putting in there, you're you're blurred and everything. So you gotta take a little of it on yourself that, you know, maybe there's something you could do differently. But marketing has just been a challenge because it's trying to figure out what is the Golden ticket. And I figure they're really if there is one, nobody's talking and it's just it's one of those elusive things. Now I know there's people that do make very well selling their books independently. I've just been struggling to find that that avenue that gets me to where my readers are

[00:18:53] spk_0: right. I think one of the biggest things that I found over the years, because I I've tested out pretty much every marketing tactic known to man, and some of them work really well. Some of them don't work as well. Some of them were great as long as you're spending a certain amount of money. But the problem is, then it can force you upside down if you're not careful. So cost per click pay, you know, pay to play. Advertising is definitely one of those things. You have to know where your breaking point is. And I think that's something that I in the past have struggled with understanding. And I think most authors due to where it's like you can't you can't outbid yourself. Otherwise you're losing money. You know what I mean? In the long run and and sometimes you take those hits because you're like, Hey, I think ultimately it'll pull readers through the rest of my books as we go forward, Thio lost leader and all that stuff. But I'll tell you, it's it is a struggle and I think all authors, not just India authors, but I think all authors probably struggle with the marketing side of things if they don't have Ah ah, marketing team who Onley focuses on books and so they know that game. Yeah,

[00:19:51] spk_1: I hear you. Yeah, And and And you hear the stories of these, like, pie in the sky people that I mean, you're J K Rowling's Stephen King. And you know, just all these authors that air, just like, you know, they're bringing these insane numbers. And I think I know for me and probably a lot of indie authors like hell if they did it, why can't I do it? I mean, it's gonna be easy, right? You just write the book and put it out there.

[00:20:14] spk_0: But here's the thing. You know you can't You can't compare your beginning to their like middle. You know what I mean? Or and if they're getting close to their lifespan, I guess I mean, Stephen King is not gonna live for, like, another 100 years, but he's still going, so, you know, power to that man. But I think a lot of us we do struggle with that comparison where it's like, Well, if they could do it, why can't I will some of these people, you know, Do you have J. K. Rowling's marketing team. Do you have her budget? Probably not. You know what I mean? On I'm the same way I feel the same, the same struggles where it's like I keep trying to find that perfect solution so that I could bring it toe people. And it is. I think you're right, people. If someone's found it, they're not talking about it. Or if they're not talking about it, have they actually found it? Because I really do wonder like those book reports that you see in 20 books. Oh, my God, some of these numbers and and it's like Okay, but how much money? And most of them will not tell you how much money they actually spent to get themselves.

[00:21:15] spk_1: You know, one of my author I met in South Africa, Nicholas would Smith. He, uh, I've talked with him a lot. He's a younger guy, college age, but really, really bright. And he's got a lot of great releases themselves, and he's one of these people. When I do a newsletter swap with, you know, I mean, it's like he's got the most very engaged audience, but he would I would talk to him about that. How many people put up? May I make $100,000 in a month? And he said, Yeah, well, they're probably spending $99,000 to make that, you know, or something, you know, whatever. Whatever it would be, you know, it it is It's very interesting.

[00:21:57] spk_0: It is, especially if they don't have the back list in order to be able to support it, too. Like with the that written word media study. Well, they've done to now 11 last year, one this year. And in order to get to that 100,000 or level, it's like you have to have 28 plus books on average in order to make that. And of course, those studies don't tell you how much. In order to make $100,000 you're actually spending either, funnily enough, but it is interesting that in order to get to that point, even, like, sort of get there, you have to be, you know, having a list of books. You gotta have the back catalog.

[00:22:32] spk_1: Yeah, and that's why another reason. Like I've decided, Thio, I am gonna keep eyes out. And of course, Jenny, um, my p a in your p A. I've talked with her about it. And, you know, I've been getting the discussions with her on, and I said, you know, well, I have this other Siri's out the trilogy, But the space opera is not going to start coming until February, so I don't And I've changed my approach, even with a pre order that initially, when the prior releases, what I would do is I would plug the preorder like crazy to my newsletter list to friends posted on my personal Facebook anywhere in a couple of those marketing services I was talking about. Yeah, and it would go. Haven't have sometimes fair preorders this last one I did with Jenny, and I mean, it was the best one ever had, you know? And yeah, but this time I'm not. I'm waiting because yeah, I'm hearing now, Okay. And I guess there's all these theories, like like you're saying everybody you know, trying to figure out Okay, what is the might ease on? Want out of me, you know, or my book. And so So now the idea being okay, wait until your releases out and then start to on a staggered basis. Start to email members of my list that really the not so engaged ones first. And then a few days later, someone engaged in a few moving on up to the diehard rider die while my books people, you know? Yep, yep, Yeah, So that that's kind of that's kind of been my take on this this coming release just to try toe, ease into it a little bit and then kind of build momentum because I know you can run out of steam quick, especially cash. If you're trying to budget

[00:24:29] spk_0: for sure Well, what's really interesting, too, is that, like, even when you're in that rapid release mindset in the rapid release game, we have to always remember that these books are evergreen. They're always gonna be there. And so you can always come back around and do another relaunch, so to speak, or another promotion that is a big promotion that will get it back on the game. When I did the Panama's chronicles, Panama's came out and it wasn't until, like that was in 2013 2017 is when the next two books came out. It didn't hit international bestseller or any of that until 2018. So you always have that opportunity to pull things back around and get things going again. E been dead the water for years. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:06] spk_1: No. That I figured. I thought that was just You're you're like a runaway had a runaway hit. I guess I I never knew where your story of being the international bestseller.

[00:25:15] spk_0: You always have that opportunity. No matter when you release something to decide. Okay, we're going to really focus in on the marketing efforts for this trilogy and the fact that you have your trilogy and you have your box that you have these opportunities that other people who haven't even written those numbers of books have. Because you can always put that effort into really marketing it, making it matter. So it z a really cool thing to be able to know that you have those sitting there waiting for you whenever you're ready. That is

[00:25:43] spk_1: good. That's good. Good point. I didn't think about that. Yeah, yeah, I've gotten When a critic Martel's books have been reading through his and his His thing is of course, you know the best thing that sells. Ah, book is the next book, but definitely talking.

[00:25:58] spk_0: I don't know if I agree with that, though. I don't know that I agree with that. After doing the wind Haven stuff, I will tell you that I haven't seen the incremental growth and I've been putting ad spend and budget and throwing everything at that Siri's and the Siri's is great. But the fourth. It's not like I've seen this like crazy incremental growth. They've they've hovered at about even every single month. Yeah, I figured

[00:26:23] spk_1: for me it's gonna come on back list because, you know, I e mean the pandemic is of course, really increase my writing output. But who's to say, you know what it's like in March? Everything goes back to normal because I tell you this much, if I mean not. I'm not gonna remotely say that this has been a good thing at all. Don't get me wrong. But one thing that has come out of this being at home for all these months I mean this six book six novelette Siri's that I'm about to release. If if things had happened like the way they didn't and I would still be working on right now, I would be editing it, I wouldn't be releasing in February. I mean, I'm just trying to finish

[00:27:04] spk_0: it, you

[00:27:05] spk_1: know, maybe usually, Like, maybe by this end of the year, And I'd be looking at maybe in the summer or later, you know? So it is definitely up my output, but I figure it's gonna come for me on the back list because typically, my output is not that not fast. I mean, I I like to write, but, you know, even like, Like said, we'll marry both. No kids, but keep pretty active, play music pretty often. And just you

[00:27:34] spk_0: mean you have some balance in your life? What is that, Paul? Yeah,

[00:27:43] spk_1: and just, you know, just a day job. I mean, 10 hours working 10 hour days. Uh, maybe it's not. It is like having the one day off. But sometimes that day is used to recover from the other four.

[00:27:56] spk_0: E can completely understand that one. I don't even know. I bet. Oh, my goodness. So your marketing obviously has been a struggle, Probably since the beginning. So when did you When did your first book come out? Was that in 2010 or was that did you wait a while. I

[00:28:14] spk_1: did. Um, I joined the Body Writers Club in 2013, but yeah, and by that time, I hadn't even had it ready. I did have it, like, critique by them. And so I didn't put out my and actually, that wasn't even the first thing I put out. The very, very first thing that I put out wasn't the first thing I wrote a story called The Harvest. It was a sci fi.

[00:28:40] spk_0: Remember that, actually, Yeah,

[00:28:43] spk_1: yeah, it's been It's been, uh, the group actually encouraged me. One of our members, guy named Dennis, uh, he's a fascinating, really into writing. It writes a ton. I mean, this guy has got a slew of things that he's written. Um, and he was talking about the whole short story idea and just how you can, actually, and this is back in 2013 2014, about how you know short stories or becoming a little more in vogue. People have less time. It's easy to scrap up, you know, 16,000 word short story could read it on the go, read on their phone or

[00:29:23] spk_0: whatever,

[00:29:24] spk_1: and got me to really think about it. And why not? You know, And so I wrote that. And so that was the actual first thing I released on Amazon back in 2015. And just think, Yeah, I've just been going ever since then. I think I put leave from absence, which is the very first, the non science fiction, short story novel, non science fiction novel. I put that one out. I want to say it's 2016, and then just from there, I think the first of the trilogy came out the next year in 2017. So I've just been kinda every year trying to do at least one or two, all right? And so now, of course, this coming year is going to be a ah blockbuster as faras, right? Yeah. It's gonna

[00:30:08] spk_0: be like going like gangbusters. It'll be crazy s O, even in the beginning, was was marketing a struggle, Then back in the 2015 era?

[00:30:18] spk_1: Oh, totally. I didn't even have an email list when I first put this out. I mean, this was this me begging and pleading with my family and friends.

[00:30:25] spk_0: E had an email list, but I never really did much with that I feel used so much because it wasn't until 2017 where I was like, you know, I should probably been working on that. I completely get it. Oh, my goodness on. Then It's like you kick yourself going. I could have been working on that since 2013 or whatever it was. Yeah, I totally understand. Eso Authors, if you're listening, get your list up and running. It's like the best thing you could do right now use as your email provider. Is it male or light? Or is it something else? What do you use?

[00:31:01] spk_1: It is Miller Lite. I was on mail chimp for a while that I was on male chip from the beginning of building my list. And they just of course,

[00:31:10] spk_0: the

[00:31:10] spk_1: price has got a little steeper, of course. Yeah, and one of my my list. And it just kind of my list started grow. And of course, there went the monthly fees. And I've been hearing, um, you know, everybody's got their favorite service and I looked around. I looked at San Fox on Ben. I'd heard about Miller Lite and I'd heard like, new years back, they were having some not so good feedback from their users. But sounds like that's been addressed, but and I decided to go with them and just made the switch back last month. And same

[00:31:47] spk_0: actually e not from male chimp I I started originally with Oh, gosh, I don't even know who I started with originally. Come to think of it, but I was with Miller Lite almost from the very beginning when I really started to grow the list because of insta freebie. So I was trying to find something that connected with insta freebie, And they had a special offer at that time where you could get a discount on Miller Lite if you were on the other one. And so that's that's where the whole thing started. And I was there during that whole downfall of Miller Lite when everything was going haywire and people were getting blacklisted. Oh, yeah, that was that was a struggle. But,

[00:32:20] spk_1: man, Well, yeah, yeah, you say answered free. But yeah, that was definitely another big part of it growing at that. And then book funnel. I think that was the first thing I got on this book Funnel. And then I didn't serve free me for a while. I didn't. I kind of got away from them. But I then and you actually, the one that got me into story origin. I heard you talking about story origin. Just the fact that it's free. I mean, come on.

[00:32:48] spk_0: Yeah, right. It's over there. Like brouhaha. It won't be free for much longer.

[00:32:54] spk_1: It's like $500 a month,

[00:32:58] spk_0: right? He's got this incredible platform going right now that I wouldn't be surprised. It almost certain people will be like, Yeah, he's

[00:33:08] spk_1: got a Yeah, he did it the right way. I mean, he's and just everything in there, the little the promotions, the getting I mean, I'm audiobook codes Now, for one of for the audio book I put out. Yeah, what kind of things?

[00:33:23] spk_0: It's fantastic. I like both of them so much book funnel and in story origin. Because they have different options. Like book funnel. I found now, like, if you wanted to be able Thio and who knows, maybe Evan at story original. Add this at some point, but we're gonna be setting up some pretty in depth book funnels inside the back end of go figure book funnel I mean the process of working on that for next year, which is something I will be talking about next year as well. But they have the ability in book funnel to set up like the whole payment structure. So if your book is wide and you want to use it as a lead magnet or you want to use it as a week magnet for a discount or if you want to just sell your books in general, you can use book funnel to do it and then hook up PayPal to book funnel. And the whole exchange happens through book funnel. But you get paid through your PayPal account. It's pretty neat.

[00:34:12] spk_1: Wow. Okay, right. I may. Are you you must have, like, more the advanced plan for them, right? Like the midlist author. Or do you have?

[00:34:21] spk_0: Yeah, it's the It's like the $15.1. So it's It's the first one where you have the integrations is the one that I have.

[00:34:28] spk_1: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I don't have the higher like and but but yeah, definitely. I've got the one. I do pay the monthly face. I think I have the lower monthly fees here. Whatever that one is

[00:34:39] spk_0: the only reason I went. Sorry, Book funnel. The only reason I went to the next year for that integration, like I've been at the $10.1 forever, was because we're setting up these book funnels and I wanted Thio automate it and test the automation. I mean, it's not like $5 a month is a super ton extra. But if I can spend $5 on ads instead instead of just like saving the integration, it was like I did that for years. Why not? So it was one of the one of things. But if we're going to set up this this automation for the funnel, we were like, No, we're gonna add that in there because I could get crazy. I mean, crossing fingers, that it's a good problem to have, right?

[00:35:17] spk_1: Absolutely. Yeah, well, I mean, definitely when you're not gonna find out if you don't experiment for sure. I mean, it's That's something. Whenever I e get Thio don't want to say argument, but definitely like Jenny, I'd be saying, you know, I don't want to spend all this money in the hands and she said, Well, how you gonna learn it if you don't, you know, spend money on it. And just trying to

[00:35:34] spk_0: think of books, right? You got Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She's partially right on that. I have to give her that. But she's always pushing me as well. And I'm like, Hang on. I gotta make sure my numbers air. Right. Hold your horses, Woman. She is so funny. She she wants to help grow her authors so much. And I love that about her. But sometimes I'm like, Oh, it's craziness. Hold on a second. Let me just work. Crunch some numbers. And she's like numbers. What are those? Unless their sales I don't care. She's so funny. Okay, So if you could wave a magic wand and get whatever the marketing results are that you're hoping for or whatever results period that you're hoping for, what would those results look like

[00:36:18] spk_1: to you? Well, I would definitely like a steady stream of sales. I mean, I didn't want to say how little mind get, but I wanna I'd like to get a steady of stream. I mean, obviously I love writing. And, you know, I my goal with writing is to just look at it like a look at music. I mean, I've been playing music for 40 years. I've made some money off it. I haven't made a living off it, and I don't have to make a living off it. It's a passion. And, you know, I tried toe like I kind of go back and forth of writing. I mean, definitely I love it, and I want to continue doing it. I wanna get burned out by like, Oh, God, numbers and everything. The sales were horrible, but, I mean, I would like to be able to say Yeah, to get at least a steady stream of sales mawr and more approaching you've been a second income. You know, I would like to eventually have that. You know, I'm gonna hold on to that passion, but, I mean, in the end, you know, I definitely would like to bring in some or money on it, uh, even maybe make a living one day, You know that? That's kind of the goal. So I just wanna I wanna just keep in mind that that passion for the writing I don't want to ever get Let the chase for the dollar get in the way of that.

[00:37:32] spk_0: Yep, absolutely. I'm right there with you on that, because for me that the writing has always been my creative outlet. And I've had that conversation with Colin so frequently where it's like, you know, I want to do this thing. I wanna make sure that it's doing well and when it's not doing well, then I get stressed out. He's like, Well, are you writing for yourself for your writing, for the money? And it's like, Well, no, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that I'm testing all these things, trying Thio, trying to find that magic ticket for everyone, not just myself, but for everyone to be able to relay it and try to get that across. Because this industry, it's so new that I don't think anyone has the answers yet. They all claim to have the answers, and they'll claim to say they know this thing is gonna work, but it doesn't work for everybody. And it you're not gonna have a six figure income just because you have 28 books. So there are certain nuances you have to build infrastructures you have to create and which ones are those. That's why I'm always jumping ship and trying something new. Flow desk. Let's see if that works. Let's go check it out. And when it frustrates me enough, I'm like, No, let's go back to the one that was working better. Let's go back, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So

[00:38:34] spk_1: you have a good point about the the magic elixir we talked about? Just say, you know, everybody says I've got the thing. This is what you need to do. If you do, this will be great. And years ago, before, I was even thinking about writing like this and publishing. Uh, I was trying Internet marketing, and, you know, I've gotten into all these different, you know, affiliate marketing sites and programs and Google, um, AdSense and all these different things. And one of the people that I got to talk with this guy was into internal market. He said something that I thought was pretty apropo, and I think he could even apply it to this. This book marketing we're talking about and he said, You know, the thing about it is these people out there and they'll they'll release like a program or a service or something, and or like a book rather about how to do it. And by the time they released their their program, whatever they're they're telling you to do is already it's that's how dated. Yeah, by the time they sell the service of whatever doing it, you know, it's not so much, it's it's constantly changing your right. It's its's just Amazon. You know, their their algorithm. I mean, God knows how many times it has been and will be changed. Yeah, everything else. Yeah,

[00:39:50] spk_0: That's why some of the programs are really important to things like publisher Rocket because they keep tabs, for the most part on those algorithms, in ways that things can work better. And so even if you're not focusing on that, as much as maybe another should be or whatever you can kind of trust that they will be so as long as you're using their system and trying to get in there pretty frequently, like updating your keywords or using them for new keywords for ads or whatever the case might be, I think that's beneficial. But really, we're kind of in a cool spot space to because books have been around forever, you know that there's not a whole lot that changes specifically about books. People love books. People read books. They read them for entertainment. They want to escape their world. So as long as we're still providing, you know, that escapism for them I think we're kind of in a better situation than a lot of those people who are, like you said, doing some of these big programs that maybe do alter pretty quickly. We're trying toe instead. Just get those stories out there and try Thio. Don't make the world a little bit better or cooler or need or or get those ideas out there. You know I love it.

[00:40:55] spk_1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. So are you. I know we were talking about this earlier. I about the whole Amazon or wide discussion. Are you still thinking of going the way of the wide or

[00:41:11] spk_0: you got the light? I love that so much I might have to steal that and use that in my promotional stuff later. On the way of Dwight, I love it. You got it. We'll get an affiliate thing. Speaking of affiliates, we'll get something set up, but But what do the things that I wanted to test because e I have to always be in test mode is how I feel I want I want to make sure that I'm providing as much relevancy it as possible. So I do still recommend that if you've only got a couple of books out, you're gonna want to stick with Amazon because you have to master one thing before you could go wide is how I feel. I went wide first, and I felt like it was not the right move for me, especially in the beginning when I only had the one book and then just the three. The trilogy. I wish I would have gone just solely 100% into Amazon at first and really put all into K u. And I did work on that a lot better in 2018. But you know, when I was still working on those additional books in 2019, I went wide again trying to think they're trying to get that book. Bob deal. So in 2019 was my worst year of like the three that I had had because of the fact that I went wide and, you know, obviously all the K U repatriates dropped, and I didn't really have a game plan for marketing wide, so that was part of my problem as well. I was literally just letting it kind of sit there so that I

[00:42:38] spk_1: could, you

[00:42:39] spk_0: know, book, book deal. That was my whole goal. Uh, this time it's a little bit different. I am pulling eight of my books out. I'm leaving the new Siris in there. I'm leaving the brand new series that I'm writing in K U. So that it it goes straight to K. U. Apple Books was trying to talk me out of that for the new new new Siri's, but I haven't changed my mind as of yet. I had a conversation with them this past week, so But yes, my pandemics chronicles are going to go wide. And then the books that are kind of standalone is that he's dimension. Those were all going to go white as well, because, honestly, what I found over this past year is unless they're attached to a series that is being promoted with your first book. A lot the read through, like the people don't find those books. The stand alone books in K You So I'm like, OK, well, there's no point in leaving the stand alone books in K U. I mean, we'll put him wide, start building my base wide. So ultimately, I can start to have ah, wider audience, obviously wide, wide, wide, wide for the win, but with the venomous chronicles. The idea for that one is that funnel The whole reason I'm pulling Panama's, otherwise it would stay in there. I would just leave it there because it does really well with K U. But it's it's so that I can test out this new funnel in the background in email marketing. But I can't test it out using ah lost leader. So using condoms, for instance, as a free or 99 cent thing if I want to keep it at 3 99 elsewhere. I can't do that unless it's wide. So there's all these, like weird, weird little nuances, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have to pull it, pull it out. It's gonna go wide. But I have a different strategy this time, different marketing tactics, and so that's the plan. That's why I'm going wide with it. But I am not doing it with any of my new titles because I I know how much of a game changer K you really can be for authors in the authors and especially new authors who are putting out brand new books or maybe only have a couple books E k you is incredible.

[00:44:33] spk_1: Yeah, yeah, I really saw that with the box set, you know, And I think that's where I really And I think that was the group that the writers group was telling me, you know, that that was really what to think about. And it really now it did require me to promote. I mean, I don't get a lot of organic reads. But, boy, when I run a promotion, especially with this box set, I had the biggest month I've ever had this year, like about a month to back just promoting the box set. And so I've got another. I started looking at promo that air, focusing on K you and then just just shoving my boxes at them on. But it just it just came out in, like August. So it's, you know, it's still fairly new. I mean, so I'm s o for my Siri's that Siri's I'm probably gonna keep in Amazon, but I'm looking at I am going to test the waters with the space opera. And I figure, you know, I figured if I start with it wide And maybe if if things air man not really sizzling too much, Aiken, maybe pulling back, you know? And just I do have it on Amazon as well. But I'm kind of like I'm not moving anything that was on Amazon exclusive. I'm leaving it there because I just there's so much linked in and all that. I just I don't wanna have toe remember and then redo. And I mean, it was just the format. I mean, thank you once again for helping me for formatting the box set. Yeah, well, it looks like a million bucks for sure. That is

[00:46:08] spk_0: the power of vellum guys. Vellum is amazing,

[00:46:13] spk_1: but yes, I'm kind of thinking I'm going to keep those there, so I guess hybrid of sorts. But, you know, I want to see and I figure anything. You gotta go with it for a little while, Like I mean, I can't just say Okay, I'm gonna put one book out, and if it doesn't work. It's not for me, I figure. Let me get let me get these six out. Maybe the seven with the anthology and just let's let's see how it goes. And I'll probably get around to doing some or, you know, promotion, marketing.

[00:46:47] spk_0: So if you are going to test them out wide first up front, one of the things that Apple said was toe let them know as new releases Air coming out. So if you get in touch with Apple Books, what they're trying to do is partner more with India authors. So this is for anyone who actually does want to go wide to. But if you want a Z, they are focusing their platform. According to Winnie at Apple Books, um, they're focusing more on new releases. So rather than the long term stuff, their their platform really pushes out and tries to help out brand new releases. And if you partner with them by, you know, emailing them and saying, Hey, look, my my book is why these are the things that are coming out. I have new books planned for X y Z date. Here's a promotion. I was thinking of doing with this first book or book three is coming out. So I'm gonna run a promotion for book one for a dollar off or whatever, and you let them know that in advance, they'll either try to get you into, like, a marketing distribution list so that you know when it coincides with something that they're already doing, or they'll even try to work with you to create a special promo for that new release that's coming out. But you have tow email them. Obviously, you have to have that like back and forth relationship with Apple Books and let them know when you're working on different things because that their goal, according to Winnie from this past week, is to really almost create a a personal relationship with the indie authors who are working in the system. She's like we have, you know, hundreds of thousands of authors, but only a few of them are actually interacting with Apple books. So if you want to interact with them and what your books to be seen better, that might be a better option for you. I mean, it still works for books that are already on the platform as well but the ones that usually get the yeses three Easiest. They're going to be your new releases.

[00:48:29] spk_1: Okay, Sounds good. Appreciate that. Yeah, definitely.

[00:48:34] spk_0: Heck, yes. Well, sounds like you've tried a lot of different strategies so far. And then you've got obviously jenny on your side. So she always helps with some creative new stuff. Like, even when I'm not even thinking about promotions, she's like, we need to do some promotions. Let's let's see what we could do this with, like, Oh, my goodness. Okay, so in in your author journey, what stopped you from taking areas in or taking action in those areas that are your biggest struggles like it? Has there been anything that really has stopped you from taking that action?

[00:49:05] spk_1: Uh, well, as far as, like, just a marketing stuff, um, at time is just, you know, is a challenge just getting I mean, it's been easier this year just being at home, like, 90% of the time. But general schedule, it's I mean, it's sometimes it's regular years. It's time for me toe. It's hard for me to find time to write some months. Let's, you know, market when I'm writing. So that that's Ah, that's a challenge. And then, you know, it's almost like a fog when you get into it, because it's like, you know, we we we've talked about it. It's all the I've got this idea and this work for me and I made, you know, $1000 just selling books this way. And you got to do this. No, You gotta forget all that. Those people are wrong. This is the way to do it. No, that's the way to do it. No, this is the way to do it, you know, And it's like you get into this fog where it's like, all right, I don't know which ends up anymore and it and not a great response. But, ah, lot of times I think I would just kind of shut down a little bit like, Well, I kind of like, just pull back from this a little. It's just it's just a slew of people at each other, and whoever is saying they're thing is the best. And then someone else comes in and it's a lot off, you know, confusion,

[00:50:22] spk_0: truth, partial truth.

[00:50:24] spk_1: Yeah, and the people that the stuff that works for them. And, of course, and like I was telling Lisa, the leader of the writers group, To me, it's like it's like diets. How maney diets are there out there. I mean, there's a lot of diets. And then if there was one diet that worked for everybody, when they're just be one diet, there isn't there's there's tons of them, you know? I'm thinking of it that way. Like Okay, because what works for your books, man? I work for mine, man. I work for Jim's man I work for You know everybody else?

[00:50:56] spk_0: Yep. Yep. Well, I think there are some. There are some common threads that really will benefit, but it's going to be coming down to that list at first. You know what I mean? You have to start with that email list and continue thio constantly working on growing it because a lot of those marketing efforts, like you said, especially the ones that are outside of your own sphere. Those ones are the ones that are like they might work. They might not work. And it all just depends.

[00:51:21] spk_1: Yeah, in the marketing on the emails. Definitely. I've I've learned a lot about that I've been, uh, really working that hard over the past several years. And, um, you know, I got into the whole newsletter swaps and that really, that helped me out a lot in the beginning. I think the problem I ran into it was a little bit of saturation going on with me because I hit that thing hard. I mean, twice a month I email and no less than five links, five different swaps. And I think some of my list just kinda got like, I guess for a

[00:51:57] spk_0: while you were You were so cute. I was emailing people every week with six different swaps every week. Jenny was ready to pull her hair out when I was doing that list name, it was like we were hitting everyone from every angle from every location. And people are like, I am so sick of seeing secret legacy as a swap right now. E

[00:52:20] spk_1: was looking at the list and like okay, because it wasn't. Of course, the opening and the click rate just started to really plummet. And, you know, I guess maybe some of it could be that you can point to the provider for it, but you know, you got to take a little, you know, accountability to and and I'm looking at the list and just the emails that I'm thinking, What am I doing wrong? What is not getting through to these people? And I just figured, well, maybe, you know, they're looking at my email like it's an Amazon results page. And, you

[00:52:49] spk_0: know, or as Stephen Gordon would say, they're not looking at your email at all because it just went in the junk folder or the promotions folder. Yeah, because there are too many links. Good

[00:52:59] spk_1: point. Yeah, I had a whole thing with Nicholas was talking about he, um he and I got into a debate about Well, should you put images it all in your email because, you know, I'm always I'm from the school of thought that, you know well, people judge a book by its cover that, like, the covers I mean, way put all this time into it and covers. I can look good as a thumbnail and everything. And why not showing the cover? It's the first piece of marketing, right? And then his thing must Yeah, but on the email side, they get too many pictures in an email, and they, their email service might not even show it to him. It might just put in some kind of social folder social media for not their primary inbox, where it's more visible.

[00:53:37] spk_0: Yep, absolutely. And Stephen Gordon has talked about that on the podcast is, well, where it's like you want to be able to get that first initial pass through into their inbox so that their their email service provider knows that, Oh, this. This is a person that we want to actually see. And then if you do have a couple of emails where you have more promotion, images and links and whatever, it's fine. I know that's something that I struggle with as well, because I'm a very visual person, and it's like I want them to be able to see stuff. So I've tested out things where it's like send them to your website where all the visual images and stuff are. But that doesn't always work either, so e don't know. It's it's kind of that I think there has to be that balance between the two, where you have some visuals inside the the newsletter itself, and then you send them to your website for some of the other stuff. Okay, so let's see, How would you feel if you got a solution to your challenge? Like if someone actually did come out with something that, you know, answered all those questions when it came to marketing or whatever. Would you be skeptical? Would you be like, Yeah, right. Okay. Or is that something that at some point, you would love to be able Thio, uh, incorporate into your platform?

[00:54:47] spk_1: If you if I got if I got a solution? Um, yeah, I would probably be a little cautious at first. Just haven't been burned by a few people that said, you know, this marketing services great. Not great. And I'll spend money on it, and nothing happens, you know? So I'm probably a little, little, uh, leery of it at first, but I'm also I'm into trying different, different things. I mean, I've even, uh, try toe switching book designer cover designers. You know, I actually did it before, and I've contacted Christopher, Say your Christian, Christian Christian. Yes. And so he's gonna be doing one for me coming up Nice. And, uh, yeah, so I'm not beyond trying, but I'm definitely, you know, trying to be a little judicious about Okay, You know, let's let's be a little cautious because, like, like you, you know, I definitely have a mortgage to pay, and I don't wanna be, you know? Yeah, we gotta be. We're gonna be in a box next week because I

[00:55:51] spk_0: blew. I don't think Andrea would like that.

[00:55:54] spk_1: No, no, no, no.

[00:55:56] spk_0: Should be, like, pull. You know what? No, that's not gonna work for us. Way

[00:56:02] spk_1: Got a problem?

[00:56:02] spk_0: Yeah. You're gonna be outside doing nothing but trumpet playing, trying to earn money A with a bucket in front of you. That's what you're gonna be doing. Okay, well, we already talked about your plans for 2021. So I guess we're coming to the close of this sucker. Holy cow. But where can my audience find you and your books if they are interested in checking you out and all of your awesome books that they're on their way for 2021?

[00:56:28] spk_1: Well, I am on amazon dot com. You can definitely find, uh, all of the books of released so far there you can reach me on Facebook. as well. Um, Paul Weingarten, author. And I guess maybe be better to put my links in your

[00:56:48] spk_0: industry. We'll make sure that we have some links in the show notes so that people can can find you. E

[00:56:53] spk_1: do a lot of spelling of my name at work and stuff. I'm talking to other people. Yeah, Z kind

[00:56:58] spk_0: of kindergarten, but with high in the front. Yeah, pretty

[00:57:03] spk_1: much. Yeah, with tea instead of a D. Yeah. And let's

[00:57:08] spk_0: see, let's start kindergarten. It was with the end. Yeah. Kindergarten. Yeah, you're right. You're right, E

[00:57:17] spk_1: z. I'm also And for those who don't wanna have to worry about spelling my last name, I am on Twitter and Instagram as Tanis 21 12. Um, that's Ah, Dragon lands reference for any of the DNC, uh, fantasy readers out there, Dragon Lanza. Siri's came out years ago. If you If you're familiar with that one, that was Yeah. That was one of my earlier influences to my

[00:57:45] spk_0: brother, Love. I mean, still to this day, he's a dungeon master, like he's 36 years old, and he does DND campaigns all the time. I never got into it myself. but I watched many of them.

[00:57:58] spk_1: E Yeah, I used to do that. I still have the books I haven't played in a long time. Now I have taken to collecting some of the miniature figures, though like, you know, way Go to Barnes and Noble and, you know, without fail, I eventually ends up in the sci fi fantasy section. Big Shock e o. Imagine that. And I I always just like, See, I don't have any plans of playing D and D any time, but just, like, kind of see what's what's happening. Which the has the game evolved, you know, And and of course, I love the little figurines. So sometimes I'll still collect those, but yeah, but Tan is 21 12. That's where I got that from the carrot. One of the characters from the Dragon Land, Siri's in 21 12. Just cause I like our palindromes, Um, let's see Pauline garden dot com and that's that's the primary ones you can find me at.

[00:58:54] spk_0: Obviously. Now I assume you have ah link to be able to sign up for your newsletter on your website as

[00:58:58] spk_1: well. I dio dio I am giving away a free short story called Natural Election. Um, that Z get that for signing up. And, uh, yeah, you get my email list. I e mailed twice a month. I

[00:59:14] spk_0: have

[00:59:15] spk_1: a bunch of freebies. You conjoined my crew of Paul, which is the reader group that you can get every book. Alright, for free, uh, looking for some? Yeah, honest reviews for that. You're honest reviews and the like.

[00:59:32] spk_0: Wicked. And then, of course, you'll get probably in touch with Jenny Arpaio because she is probably the one that will be, uh, taking you to make sure that you post a review. Yes,

[00:59:42] spk_1: absolutely. On. Of course, I I couldn't end this without saying thank you. Also for introducing me to Jenny. Uh, welcome. Been using her services for the year. Now, Andi, it's definitely been a shot in the arm. She has done a lot of the task that I've dreaded or just haven't been really good at going to like the whole Internet marketing Facebook, Twitter, instagram posting, getting promo, graphics ready, coming up with ideas, letting me know of ideas, you know, in the sea of everybody, with all the different services and promotes and everything I mean, during the pandemic, she clued me into that give away that a lot of authors were doing, which I thought was really nice freebie books just for the pandemic. And it helped, you know, gets, um, visibility out for me, I think,

[01:00:34] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely. She has some, I think, because she has a kind of a slew of people where we range from like, known to not known toe, like just starting out to whatever she she has the opportunity to work with a lot of different marketing techniques that other authors have been using and implementing. And she's like this little fountain of knowledge because she's she's working with so many different people that maybe, you know, we wouldn't have that opportunity to even know that that group promo thing was existing for the pandemic. But because she's connected to so many other P. A s and so many other authors, she's just she's got it all laid out.

[01:01:10] spk_1: Yeah, she's she's a great person.

[01:01:14] spk_0: Yes, she is. Well, I'm so glad that it's been working out, and I hope that will continue to work out in the future and grow massively with your books and all that good fun stuff. I think it will. Because you've got a really good game plan for 2021 laid out. I think it's gonna be a really cool thing to be able to watch and see how it goes for you. Because you've got a good plan. I think in place.

[01:01:33] spk_1: Thank you. Thank you. Bye. I thank you for your encouragement and your influence and your inspiration, because definitely you've been a part of that. And I'll be sure to keep in touch and keep you posted on how things progress.

[01:01:46] spk_0: I love it. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much, Paul. We'll talk to you later, then. Thank you.

[01:01:51] spk_1: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

[01:01:54] spk_0: Well, there you have it. My friend. Isn't Paul amazing? He has some fantastic creative energy, and I can't wait to see what he does in the future. Now, for those of you who are interested in becoming a rapid release author, I do encourage you to hop into my final masterclass. It's going to be happening on January 20th at eight PM Central standard time. I'm gonna be talking a lot more about the secret to building an indie author career that is truly successful. I know that you will find a lot of value in this conversation, and I hope that you will join me. So if you're interested in becoming an indie author for life, I encourage you to head over to author revolution dot org's ford slash masterclass to check it out and get signed up. Well, guys, that's all I have for this week. I hope you have a fantastic week ahead. Get a lot of writing in, and in the meantime, go forth and start that author revolution.